Unicode and OpenType Fonts

Post by S N
Are all OpenType Fonts Unicode compliant? Or is it the other way around- All
unicode fonts are opentype?

Neither. They are completely independent.

Post by S N
How do we check if a particular font is unicode compliant or not?

Depends on what you mean by 'unicode compliant'.

In some fonts all of the glyphs are unicoded. That does not mean that
they have the CORRECT unicodes - where 'correct' means that that the
character represented by the glyph has an appropriate name, that name
corresponds to the unicode, and it's the right shape for that character.

In some fonts, many glyphs are not unicoded at all. At least hrough
Windows Vista, those glyphs couldn't be seen with such utilities as
Character Map, and couldn't be used in MS applications. They COULD be
seen and used in most Adobe applications.

It's complicated!

- Character

S N

2010-03-05 18:22:40 UTC

By unicode compliant I am referring to the standard characters which are
used out of a particular font in such a way that the document is displayed
correctly on any system.

Kindly clarify how to confirm if the font I am using to write the document
is unicode or not.

Post by S N
Are all OpenType Fonts Unicode compliant? Or is it the other way around-
All unicode fonts are opentype?

Neither. They are completely independent.

Post by S N
How do we check if a particular font is unicode compliant or not?

Depends on what you mean by 'unicode compliant'.
In some fonts all of the glyphs are unicoded. That does not mean that they
have the CORRECT unicodes - where 'correct' means that that the character
represented by the glyph has an appropriate name, that name corresponds to
the unicode, and it's the right shape for that character.
In some fonts, many glyphs are not unicoded at all. At least hrough
Windows Vista, those glyphs couldn't be seen with such utilities as
Character Map, and couldn't be used in MS applications. They COULD be seen
and used in most Adobe applications.
It's complicated!
- Character

grammatim

2010-03-06 00:20:28 UTC

Type the four- (or five-)digit Unicode code on the regular keyboard,
followed by Alt-X. If you see the character you want in the font you
want, then it's Unicode. If the character you want isn't included in
the font you're set to, Word will insert the character in some other
font. (But the label in the font drop-down will still be the label for
the font that doesn't have the character.)

Or, switch your IME to a different language and type. Word will insert
the text in its default font for that language.

Post by S N
By unicode compliant I am referring to the standard characters which are
used out of a particular font in such a way that the document is displayed
correctly on any system.
Kindly clarify how to confirm if the font I am using to write the document
is unicode or not.

Post by S N
Are all OpenType Fonts Unicode compliant? Or is it the other way around-
All unicode fonts are opentype?

Neither. They are completely independent.

Post by S N
How do we check if a particular font is unicode compliant or not?

Depends on what you mean by 'unicode compliant'.
In some fonts all of the glyphs are unicoded. That does not mean that they
have the CORRECT unicodes - where 'correct' means that that the character
represented by the glyph has an appropriate name, that name corresponds to
the unicode, and it's the right shape for that character.
In some fonts, many glyphs are not unicoded at all. At least hrough
Windows Vista, those glyphs couldn't be seen with such utilities as
Character Map, and couldn't be used in MS applications. They COULD be seen
and used in most Adobe applications.
It's complicated!

S N

2010-03-06 10:32:00 UTC

I found that a few fonts when viewed by double clicking their file inside
the Windows>Fonts folder, indicate that they have opentype layout and
truetype outlines. Still their icon appears as a double T, stating that they
are true type and not opentype fonts. I think there is something wrong or do
we incorrectly interpret it. Or is it that the font is not unicode and yet
it has been incorrectly stated that the font is unicode inside its file.
I just want to ensure that the font I write in is universally readable and
exchangeable, which is the hallmark of Unicode.

Please clarify.

Post by grammatim
Type the four- (or five-)digit Unicode code on the regular keyboard,
followed by Alt-X. If you see the character you want in the font you
want, then it's Unicode. If the character you want isn't included in
the font you're set to, Word will insert the character in some other
font. (But the label in the font drop-down will still be the label for
the font that doesn't have the character.)
Or, switch your IME to a different language and type. Word will insert
the text in its default font for that language.

Post by S N
Are all OpenType Fonts Unicode compliant? Or is it the other way around-
All unicode fonts are opentype?

Neither. They are completely independent.

Post by S N
How do we check if a particular font is unicode compliant or not?

Depends on what you mean by 'unicode compliant'.
In some fonts all of the glyphs are unicoded. That does not mean that they
have the CORRECT unicodes - where 'correct' means that that the character
represented by the glyph has an appropriate name, that name corresponds to
the unicode, and it's the right shape for that character.
In some fonts, many glyphs are not unicoded at all. At least hrough
Windows Vista, those glyphs couldn't be seen with such utilities as
Character Map, and couldn't be used in MS applications. They COULD be seen
and used in most Adobe applications.
It's complicated!

S N

2010-03-06 10:49:10 UTC

In continuation with the previous message, I would also like to state that
in some font files, the font file itself states that it is opentype layout,
truetype outlines, yet the icon is an O, which confirms that it is opentype.
Kindly clarify if the icon is anyway connected to ensuring that the font is
opentype of truetype.

Post by S N
I found that a few fonts when viewed by double clicking their file inside
the Windows>Fonts folder, indicate that they have opentype layout and
truetype outlines. Still their icon appears as a double T, stating that
they are true type and not opentype fonts. I think there is something
wrong or do we incorrectly interpret it. Or is it that the font is not
unicode and yet it has been incorrectly stated that the font is unicode
inside its file.
I just want to ensure that the font I write in is universally readable and
exchangeable, which is the hallmark of Unicode.
Please clarify.

Post by S N
Are all OpenType Fonts Unicode compliant? Or is it the other way around-
All unicode fonts are opentype?

Neither. They are completely independent.

Post by S N
How do we check if a particular font is unicode compliant or not?

Depends on what you mean by 'unicode compliant'.
In some fonts all of the glyphs are unicoded. That does not mean that they
have the CORRECT unicodes - where 'correct' means that that the character
represented by the glyph has an appropriate name, that name corresponds to
the unicode, and it's the right shape for that character.
In some fonts, many glyphs are not unicoded at all. At least hrough
Windows Vista, those glyphs couldn't be seen with such utilities as
Character Map, and couldn't be used in MS applications. They COULD be seen
and used in most Adobe applications.
It's complicated!

Character

2010-03-06 11:41:21 UTC

Post by S N
In continuation with the previous message, I would also like to state
that in some font files, the font file itself states that it is opentype
layout, truetype outlines, yet the icon is an O, which confirms that it
is opentype.
Kindly clarify if the icon is anyway connected to ensuring that the font
is opentype of truetype.

Post by S N
I found that a few fonts when viewed by double clicking their file
inside the Windows>Fonts folder, indicate that they have opentype
layout and truetype outlines. Still their icon appears as a double T,
stating that they are true type and not opentype fonts. I think there
is something wrong or do we incorrectly interpret it. Or is it that
the font is not unicode and yet it has been incorrectly stated that
the font is unicode inside its file.
I just want to ensure that the font I write in is universally readable
and exchangeable, which is the hallmark of Unicode.
Please clarify.

The essential difference IS more than a bit confusing. First, there
are many different font formats. This discussion addresses only
TrueType and Type 1, ignoring Types 2, 3, 42, bitmap fonts, various
font formats for web use, and others. Also ignored here are
differences in encoding and other factors that could affect transparency.

There are many structural differences between pure TrueType fonts and
pure Type 1 fonts. OpenType provides an 'envelope' which can include
either style. The two kinds of font use different mathematics to form
the letter shapes. If an OpenType font contains ANY Type 1 shapes, it
MUST have an OTF extension. If it contains ONLY TrueType shapes, it
MAY have either a .ttf extension OR an .otf extension. OpenType fonts
may or may not have OpenType features.

OpenType and Unicode are two different and independent things. Yes,
OpenType uses Unicode, but an OT font may have glyphs that are not
unicoded.

See:
http://www.microsoft.com/typography/OpenTypeFAQ.mspx
http://www.myfonts.com/info/opentype/

As for your question about icons and externally assigned labels (such
as "TrueType" or "OpenType"), that's a function of whatever
application or program is looking at the font and how it's
interpreting the information it finds inside the font. This often
includes the presence or absence of specific tables.

What is your goal? If I interpret your messages, you're looking for
fonts that you can embed in (or legally distribute with) your
documents (presumably MS Word documents), and that these documents
would then appear identical to recipients. If so, this has very little
to do with Unicode or Opentype, and much to do with compatible
environments. To take a simple example: Some printers can print to the
edges of a standard sheet of paper; others may require a ½ inch
margin. If your document goes into those margins, it has to be
re-flowed or reformatted or resized to fit. There is nothing you can
do font-wise to insure transferability.

- Character

S N

2010-03-06 12:21:51 UTC

My objective is to type in Hindi using Unicode fonts in applications like MS
Word, notepad etc and then distribute them through email or send them for
commercial printing etc, without having to bother about the readability and
compatibility. I am not exactly worried about the exact layout, but am
particularly concerned whether the text would at all be readable,
considering that the text would be in Indic language like Hindi.
I have faced problems of question mark characters appearing on the text
instead of Hindi characters, hence am trying to move to unicode.
I hope it is in perfect sync with the industry practice.

Post by S N
I found that a few fonts when viewed by double clicking their file
inside the Windows>Fonts folder, indicate that they have opentype layout
and truetype outlines. Still their icon appears as a double T, stating
that they are true type and not opentype fonts. I think there is
something wrong or do we incorrectly interpret it. Or is it that the
font is not unicode and yet it has been incorrectly stated that the font
is unicode inside its file.
I just want to ensure that the font I write in is universally readable
and exchangeable, which is the hallmark of Unicode.
Please clarify.

The essential difference IS more than a bit confusing. First, there are
many different font formats. This discussion addresses only TrueType and
Type 1, ignoring Types 2, 3, 42, bitmap fonts, various font formats for
web use, and others. Also ignored here are differences in encoding and
other factors that could affect transparency.
There are many structural differences between pure TrueType fonts and pure
Type 1 fonts. OpenType provides an 'envelope' which can include either
style. The two kinds of font use different mathematics to form the letter
shapes. If an OpenType font contains ANY Type 1 shapes, it MUST have an
OTF extension. If it contains ONLY TrueType shapes, it MAY have either a
.ttf extension OR an .otf extension. OpenType fonts may or may not have
OpenType features.
OpenType and Unicode are two different and independent things. Yes,
OpenType uses Unicode, but an OT font may have glyphs that are not
unicoded.
http://www.microsoft.com/typography/OpenTypeFAQ.mspx
http://www.myfonts.com/info/opentype/
As for your question about icons and externally assigned labels (such as
"TrueType" or "OpenType"), that's a function of whatever application or
program is looking at the font and how it's interpreting the information
it finds inside the font. This often includes the presence or absence of
specific tables.
What is your goal? If I interpret your messages, you're looking for fonts
that you can embed in (or legally distribute with) your documents
(presumably MS Word documents), and that these documents would then appear
identical to recipients. If so, this has very little to do with Unicode or
Opentype, and much to do with compatible environments. To take a simple
example: Some printers can print to the edges of a standard sheet of
paper; others may require a ½ inch margin. If your document goes into
those margins, it has to be re-flowed or reformatted or resized to fit.
There is nothing you can do font-wise to insure transferability.
- Character

Character

2010-03-06 12:50:06 UTC

Post by S N
My objective is to type in Hindi using Unicode fonts in applications
like MS Word, notepad etc and then distribute them through email or send
them for commercial printing etc, without having to bother about the
readability and compatibility. I am not exactly worried about the exact
layout, but am particularly concerned whether the text would at all be
readable, considering that the text would be in Indic language like Hindi.
I have faced problems of question mark characters appearing on the text
instead of Hindi characters, hence am trying to move to unicode.
I hope it is in perfect sync with the industry practice.

The 'question mark' is usually an indication that the font being used
does not contain a glyph that appears in the original. There is a
character position named .notdef (not defined) that is often used
whenever a character is called for that is not available in the
current font. Many fonts have a question mark in the .notdef position,
many have a simple rectangle, and some have other randomly designed
symbols or logos.

As long as the font being used is the same at both ends, there are
very few problems. You can embed most fonts in MS Word documents (some
fonts prohibit their being embedded) and avoid incompatibilities.
Using two DIFFERENT fonts always leaves the possibility that exactly
the same characters aren't present in both.

Email text is notoriously unpredictable; it's dependent on whatever
font the email client decides to use. Similarly for notepad.

- Character

Character

2010-03-06 11:09:42 UTC

You can never GUARANTEE that a document will display 'correctly'
(meaning, I assume, that it appears exactly as it looked on the
creator's system). It's more important that applications (including
browsers) be unicode compliant than fonts.

This page from the Unicode consortium explains it:
http://unicode.org/faq/font_keyboard.html

If both parties have the same application, the same font, the same
level of language support, and maybe even the same operating
environment, then it should appear correctly. It doesn't matter what
the font's level of Unicode support is. Note that the same operating
environment even extends to printers, printer drivers, and display
devices and settings.

There is no set of 'standard characters'. NO font supports all the
possible characters, particularly when you get to ideographic languages.

= Character

Post by S N
Are all OpenType Fonts Unicode compliant? Or is it the other way around-
All unicode fonts are opentype?

Neither. They are completely independent.

Post by S N
How do we check if a particular font is unicode compliant or not?

Depends on what you mean by 'unicode compliant'.
In some fonts all of the glyphs are unicoded. That does not mean that they
have the CORRECT unicodes - where 'correct' means that that the character
represented by the glyph has an appropriate name, that name corresponds to
the unicode, and it's the right shape for that character.
In some fonts, many glyphs are not unicoded at all. At least hrough
Windows Vista, those glyphs couldn't be seen with such utilities as
Character Map, and couldn't be used in MS applications. They COULD be seen
and used in most Adobe applications.
It's complicated!
- Character

S N

2010-03-06 11:20:44 UTC

I found that a few fonts when viewed by double clicking their file inside
the Windows>Fonts folder, indicate that they have opentype layout and
truetype outlines. Still their icon appears as a double T, stating that they
are true type and not opentype fonts.
However, in some font files, the font file itself states that it is opentype
layout, truetype outlines, and the file icon is an O, which confirms that it
is opentype.
Kindly clarify if the icon is anyway connected to ensuring that the font is
opentype of truetype.

Post by S N
By unicode compliant I am referring to the standard characters which are
used out of a particular font in such a way that the document is
displayed correctly on any system.
Kindly clarify how to confirm if the font I am using to write the
document is unicode or not.

You can never GUARANTEE that a document will display 'correctly' (meaning,
I assume, that it appears exactly as it looked on the creator's system).
It's more important that applications (including browsers) be unicode
compliant than fonts.
http://unicode.org/faq/font_keyboard.html
If both parties have the same application, the same font, the same level
of language support, and maybe even the same operating environment, then
it should appear correctly. It doesn't matter what the font's level of
Unicode support is. Note that the same operating environment even extends
to printers, printer drivers, and display devices and settings.
There is no set of 'standard characters'. NO font supports all the
possible characters, particularly when you get to ideographic languages.
= Character

Post by S N
Are all OpenType Fonts Unicode compliant? Or is it the other way around-
All unicode fonts are opentype?

Neither. They are completely independent.

Post by S N
How do we check if a particular font is unicode compliant or not?

Depends on what you mean by 'unicode compliant'.
In some fonts all of the glyphs are unicoded. That does not mean that
they have the CORRECT unicodes - where 'correct' means that that the
character represented by the glyph has an appropriate name, that name
corresponds to the unicode, and it's the right shape for that character.
In some fonts, many glyphs are not unicoded at all. At least hrough
Windows Vista, those glyphs couldn't be seen with such utilities as
Character Map, and couldn't be used in MS applications. They COULD be
seen and used in most Adobe applications.
It's complicated!
- Character

S N

2010-03-06 11:23:00 UTC

When I am working on Vista (which is Unicode compliant) , atleast then I
must be able to ensure that the font is Unicode.

Post by S N
By unicode compliant I am referring to the standard characters which are
used out of a particular font in such a way that the document is
displayed correctly on any system.
Kindly clarify how to confirm if the font I am using to write the
document is unicode or not.

You can never GUARANTEE that a document will display 'correctly' (meaning,
I assume, that it appears exactly as it looked on the creator's system).
It's more important that applications (including browsers) be unicode
compliant than fonts.
http://unicode.org/faq/font_keyboard.html
If both parties have the same application, the same font, the same level
of language support, and maybe even the same operating environment, then
it should appear correctly. It doesn't matter what the font's level of
Unicode support is. Note that the same operating environment even extends
to printers, printer drivers, and display devices and settings.
There is no set of 'standard characters'. NO font supports all the
possible characters, particularly when you get to ideographic languages.
= Character

Post by S N
Are all OpenType Fonts Unicode compliant? Or is it the other way around-
All unicode fonts are opentype?

Neither. They are completely independent.

Post by S N
How do we check if a particular font is unicode compliant or not?

Depends on what you mean by 'unicode compliant'.
In some fonts all of the glyphs are unicoded. That does not mean that
they have the CORRECT unicodes - where 'correct' means that that the
character represented by the glyph has an appropriate name, that name
corresponds to the unicode, and it's the right shape for that character.
In some fonts, many glyphs are not unicoded at all. At least hrough
Windows Vista, those glyphs couldn't be seen with such utilities as
Character Map, and couldn't be used in MS applications. They COULD be
seen and used in most Adobe applications.
It's complicated!
- Character

S N

2010-03-06 11:25:09 UTC

If nothing is simple and certain, then why should we try to adopt unicode in
the first place.
Sorry for being straightforward and sounding naïve, but please clarify my
doubts.

Post by S N
By unicode compliant I am referring to the standard characters which are
used out of a particular font in such a way that the document is
displayed correctly on any system.
Kindly clarify how to confirm if the font I am using to write the
document is unicode or not.

You can never GUARANTEE that a document will display 'correctly' (meaning,
I assume, that it appears exactly as it looked on the creator's system).
It's more important that applications (including browsers) be unicode
compliant than fonts.
http://unicode.org/faq/font_keyboard.html
If both parties have the same application, the same font, the same level
of language support, and maybe even the same operating environment, then
it should appear correctly. It doesn't matter what the font's level of
Unicode support is. Note that the same operating environment even extends
to printers, printer drivers, and display devices and settings.
There is no set of 'standard characters'. NO font supports all the
possible characters, particularly when you get to ideographic languages.
= Character

Post by S N
Are all OpenType Fonts Unicode compliant? Or is it the other way around-
All unicode fonts are opentype?

Neither. They are completely independent.

Post by S N
How do we check if a particular font is unicode compliant or not?

Depends on what you mean by 'unicode compliant'.
In some fonts all of the glyphs are unicoded. That does not mean that
they have the CORRECT unicodes - where 'correct' means that that the
character represented by the glyph has an appropriate name, that name
corresponds to the unicode, and it's the right shape for that character.
In some fonts, many glyphs are not unicoded at all. At least hrough
Windows Vista, those glyphs couldn't be seen with such utilities as
Character Map, and couldn't be used in MS applications. They COULD be
seen and used in most Adobe applications.
It's complicated!
- Character

Character

2010-03-06 11:53:53 UTC

Post by S N
If nothing is simple and certain, then why should we try to adopt
unicode in the first place.
Sorry for being straightforward and sounding naïve, but please clarify
my doubts.

Because at one time (and probably still happening) some people created
fonts with, for example, a set of cyrillic glyphs in the character
positions assigned to the latin alphabet, or put them where the
accented characters would normally appear. Unicode assigns unique
positions. Unicode-compliant fonts can be exchanged with each other
and the same letters would appear in the same places.

There is no rational way to automatically determine what shape is in a
specific unicode position. If the glyph in Unicode position 0041(Hex)
looks like a circle instead of a latin letter 'A', the font would
still appear to be 'unicode compliant' but would be essentially
useless in the context you're talking about.

In the end, you can either delve extensively into each font, or use
fonts from major vendors and foundries whose descriptions you can
trust, such as Adobe, Microsoft, and others.

- Character

grammatim

2010-03-06 14:46:00 UTC

Basically, _you_ cannot guarantee what your recipients see on _their_
computer.

But if you are, for instance, submitting something for publication, if
your Hindi is typed with Unicode-encoded fonts, the publisher will
receive the text intact.

If you use OpenType and they don't, then they won't see the
calligraphic variants you do, but all aksharas, conjuncts, and matras
will be properly communicated.

Post by S N
If nothing is simple and certain, then why should we try to adopt unicode in
the first place.
Sorry for being straightforward and sounding na ve, but please clarify my
doubts.

Post by S N
By unicode compliant I am referring to the standard characters which are
used out of a particular font in such a way that the document is
displayed correctly on any system.
Kindly clarify how to confirm if the font I am using to write the
document is unicode or not.

You can never GUARANTEE that a document will display 'correctly' (meaning,
I assume, that it appears exactly as it looked on the creator's system).
It's more important that applications (including browsers) be unicode
compliant than fonts.
http://unicode.org/faq/font_keyboard.html
If both parties have the same application, the same font, the same level
of language support, and maybe even the same operating environment, then
it should appear correctly. It doesn't matter what the font's level of
Unicode support is. Note that the same operating environment even extends
to printers, printer drivers, and display devices and settings.
There is no set of 'standard characters'. NO font supports all the
possible characters, particularly when you get to ideographic languages.
= Character

Post by S N
Are all OpenType Fonts Unicode compliant? Or is it the other way around-
All unicode fonts are opentype?

Neither. They are completely independent.

Post by S N
How do we check if a particular font is unicode compliant or not?

Depends on what you mean by 'unicode compliant'.
In some fonts all of the glyphs are unicoded. That does not mean that
they have the CORRECT unicodes - where 'correct' means that that the
character represented by the glyph has an appropriate name, that name
corresponds to the unicode, and it's the right shape for that character.
In some fonts, many glyphs are not unicoded at all. At least hrough
Windows Vista, those glyphs couldn't be seen with such utilities as
Character Map, and couldn't be used in MS applications. They COULD be
seen and used in most Adobe applications.
It's complicated!

S N

2010-03-06 16:29:42 UTC

Post by grammatim
Basically, _you_ cannot guarantee what your recipients see on _their_
computer.
But if you are, for instance, submitting something for publication, if
your Hindi is typed with Unicode-encoded fonts, the publisher will
receive the text intact.

This is exactly the reason why I am searching for a unicode solution as
elaborated in my previous emails. I hope I am able to put my point across
that I need to ensure that the material I submit for publication or across
my organisation, typed in Hindi, gets the text intact along with the
formatting. I dont want to limit myself to MS Word, but the solution should
work for applications such as Notepad also.
Kindly advise on the following points:
1. How do I know that the font I am typing in is Unicode.
2. If the font is opentype (as indicated by opening hte font file), but
Windows reports it as TrueType (icon is T), does it imply that the font will
be unicode.
3. If the font is opentype (as indicated by opening hte font file), and
Windows reports it as OpenType (icon is O), does it imply that the font will
be unicode.

I should be able to type in Notepad in Hindi language and send it for
publication without loosing either the text or formatting like the fontsize
etc.

Post by grammatim
If you use OpenType and they don't, then they won't see the
calligraphic variants you do, but all aksharas, conjuncts, and matras
will be properly communicated.
If nothing is simple and certain, then why should we try to adopt unicode in
the first place.
Sorry for being straightforward and sounding na ve, but please clarify my
doubts.

Post by S N
By unicode compliant I am referring to the standard characters which are
used out of a particular font in such a way that the document is
displayed correctly on any system.
Kindly clarify how to confirm if the font I am using to write the
document is unicode or not.

You can never GUARANTEE that a document will display 'correctly' (meaning,
I assume, that it appears exactly as it looked on the creator's system).
It's more important that applications (including browsers) be unicode
compliant than fonts.
http://unicode.org/faq/font_keyboard.html
If both parties have the same application, the same font, the same level
of language support, and maybe even the same operating environment, then
it should appear correctly. It doesn't matter what the font's level of
Unicode support is. Note that the same operating environment even extends
to printers, printer drivers, and display devices and settings.
There is no set of 'standard characters'. NO font supports all the
possible characters, particularly when you get to ideographic languages.
= Character

Post by S N
Are all OpenType Fonts Unicode compliant? Or is it the other way around-
All unicode fonts are opentype?

Neither. They are completely independent.

Post by S N
How do we check if a particular font is unicode compliant or not?

Depends on what you mean by 'unicode compliant'.
In some fonts all of the glyphs are unicoded. That does not mean that
they have the CORRECT unicodes - where 'correct' means that that the
character represented by the glyph has an appropriate name, that name
corresponds to the unicode, and it's the right shape for that character.
In some fonts, many glyphs are not unicoded at all. At least hrough
Windows Vista, those glyphs couldn't be seen with such utilities as
Character Map, and couldn't be used in MS applications. They COULD be
seen and used in most Adobe applications.
It's complicated!

Character

2010-03-06 19:03:48 UTC

To repeat. The recipient must have the same font, or one that has the
same character set. In general, it will NOT work for Notepad; Notepad
supports plain text only and does not support any kind of formatting.
TXT files contain no font information. Whatever font Notepad uses can
be selected by the user (not by the document).

Post by S N
1. How do I know that the font I am typing in is Unicode.

All fonts are 'in Unicode' to some degree. If a vendor such as Adobe
or Microsoft or specialty suppliers of Hindi fonts states that a font
is Unicode-compliant, trust them until proven otherwise.

Or, you can acquire a serious font tool such as FontLab, open the
font, select 'Unicode' display, and see which of the glyphs do or
don't have assigned Unicodes. Then switch to 'Name' display and see if
the glyphs match the characters (that is, that the shapes match the
names).

The free Microsoft Font Properties Extension (applicable only to .otf
and .ttf fonts) will show what (as it calls it) encoding scheme is
used - almost ALWAYS Unicode ISO 10646-2. This has a different meaning
than the font Encoding that takes on the forms "Microsoft 1251",
"Adobe Standard" and a couple of dozen others. The Font Properties
Extension also displays, for most fonts, which Unicode Ranges and
which Code Pages are supported. BUT NOTE: The fact that a range is
supported does not mean that the entire range exists in the font.

Another free tool,for truetype only, is TrueType Explorer. It will
provide a detailed display of code page coverage and unicode coverage,
in summary and character by character. Google will find it for you.

Post by S N
2. If the font is opentype (as indicated by opening the font file), but
Windows reports it as TrueType (icon is T), does it imply that the font will
be unicode.

Whatever you mean by a 'unicode font', the answer is no. But all fonts
are unicode to some extent.

Post by S N
3. If the font is opentype (as indicated by opening the font file), and
Windows reports it as OpenType (icon is O), does it imply that the font will
be unicode.

See above. The font format still has nothing to do with the number of
glyphs that are unicoded.

Post by S N
I should be able to type in Notepad in Hindi language and send it for
publication without loosing either the text or formatting like the fontsize
etc.

As stated, Notepad does not retain formatting or font information.

I'm not trying to rain on your parade. If you want to create materials
that are essentially guaranteed to maintain their form and content,
create PDF's with embedded fonts and no external links. MSWord Doc
files are a reasonable alternative, assuming that your recipients have
either the same level of Word installed or the appropriate Word
Reader. If the recipients need to be able to edit and revise the
documents, ideally they should exactly the same font(s) available to
them. Documents can't be edited if the embedding flags only allow
print and display, or if only a subset is embedded. The content can
usually be copied, and preserving content would require that the
original fonts, or those with identical character sets, be available
to the recipients.

- Character

grammatim

2010-03-07 00:42:03 UTC

Post by Character
To repeat. The recipient must have the same font, or one that has the
same character set. In general, it will NOT work for Notepad; Notepad
supports plain text only and does not support any kind of formatting.
TXT files contain no font information. Whatever font Notepad uses can
be selected by the user (not by the document).
As stated, Notepad does not retain formatting or font information.
I'm not trying to rain on your parade. If you want to create materials
that are essentially guaranteed to maintain their form and content,
create PDF's with embedded fonts and no external links. MSWord Doc
files are a reasonable alternative, assuming that your recipients have
either the same level of Word installed or the appropriate Word
Reader. If the recipients need to be able to edit and revise the
documents, ideally they should exactly the same font(s) available to
them. Documents can't be edited if the embedding flags only allow
print and display, or if only a subset is embedded. The content can
usually be copied, and preserving content would require that the
original fonts, or those with identical character sets, be available
to the recipients.

he has said again and again that he _doesn't care_ about the
formatting, or the specific font. He just wahts his Hindi to come
across properly.

All that needs is for the correct _characters_ to be typed, and that
is exactly what happens with Notepad and the relevant IME.

And Notepad certainly does retain font and size information.(I don't
know what other "formatting information like fontsize" he might be
thinking of. The publisher isn't going to respect any of that anyway.)

Character

2010-03-07 02:05:18 UTC

Post by grammatim
he has said again and again that he _doesn't care_ about the
formatting, or the specific font. He just wahts his Hindi to come
across properly.

Here, we're both right. SN initially said that specific formatting
(such as page layout) was unimportant, but also said that "the
material I submit for publication or across my organisation, typed in
Hindi, gets the text intact along with the formatting. "

Post by grammatim
All that needs is for the correct _characters_ to be typed, and that
is exactly what happens with Notepad and the relevant IME.

With the proviso that the recipient uses an identical copy of the font
originally used, or another font with identical encoding and character
support.

Post by grammatim
And Notepad certainly does retain font and size information.(I don't
know what other "formatting information like fontsize" he might be
thinking of. The publisher isn't going to respect any of that anyway.)

Yes, NOTEPAD retains font and size information. But the documents it
produces do NOT retain that information.

- Character

grammatim

2010-03-07 14:35:07 UTC

Post by grammatim
he has said again and again that he _doesn't care_ about the
formatting, or the specific font. He just wahts his Hindi to come
across properly.

Post by grammatim
All that needs is for the correct _characters_ to be typed, and that
is exactly what happens with Notepad and the relevant IME.

With the proviso that the recipient uses an identical copy of the font
originally used, or another font with identical encoding and character
support.

That is simply NONSENSE. What "other" Devanagari Unicode font would
have some non-identical encoding?

If you type a text using Times New Roman and someone opens it with
Arial, has the text changed?

Yes, NOTEPAD retains font and size information. But the documents it
produces do NOT retain that information.

A distinction (if it is one) without a difference. It communicates the
text. That is all that is wanted or needed.

grammatim

2010-03-07 00:37:16 UTC

I will tell you yet again. If you type using the Hindi IME that is
included in every version of Windows at least since XP and probably at
least since Windows 97, you are typing Unicode-encoded text.

Post by S N
2. If the font is opentype (as indicated by opening hte font file), but
Windows reports it as TrueType (icon is T), does it imply that the font will
be unicode.

No. That has NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. If it is typed with the Hindi IME,
it is Unicode.

Post by S N
3. If the font is opentype (as indicated by opening hte font file), and
Windows reports it as OpenType (icon is O), does it imply that the font will
be unicode.

OF COURSE.

Post by S N
I should be able to type in Notepad in Hindi language and send it for
publication without loosing either the text or formatting like the fontsize
etc.

If you can type in Notepad using the Hindi IME -- wait, let me check
-- I don't happen to have Hindi enabled at the moment, so I tried it
with Sanskrit -- yes, you can type Devanagari in Notepad, and the
matras combine properly with the aksharas -- then your text is in
Unicode and can be imported into Word (any version of Word since at
least Word 97) with no difficulty.

(I don't know why Character said you can't type Hindi in Notepad.)

Post by S N
By unicode compliant I am referring to the standard characters which are
used out of a particular font in such a way that the document is
displayed correctly on any system.
Kindly clarify how to confirm if the font I am using to write the
document is unicode or not.

You can never GUARANTEE that a document will display 'correctly' (meaning,
I assume, that it appears exactly as it looked on the creator's system).
It's more important that applications (including browsers) be unicode
compliant than fonts.
http://unicode.org/faq/font_keyboard.html
If both parties have the same application, the same font, the same level
of language support, and maybe even the same operating environment, then
it should appear correctly. It doesn't matter what the font's level of
Unicode support is. Note that the same operating environment even extends
to printers, printer drivers, and display devices and settings.
There is no set of 'standard characters'. NO font supports all the
possible characters, particularly when you get to ideographic languages.
= Character

Post by S N
Are all OpenType Fonts Unicode compliant? Or is it the other way around-
All unicode fonts are opentype?

Neither. They are completely independent.

Post by S N
How do we check if a particular font is unicode compliant or not?

Depends on what you mean by 'unicode compliant'.
In some fonts all of the glyphs are unicoded. That does not mean that
they have the CORRECT unicodes - where 'correct' means that that the
character represented by the glyph has an appropriate name, that name
corresponds to the unicode, and it's the right shape for that character.
In some fonts, many glyphs are not unicoded at all. At least hrough
Windows Vista, those glyphs couldn't be seen with such utilities as
Character Map, and couldn't be used in MS applications. They COULD be
seen and used in most Adobe applications.
It's complicated!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Character

2010-03-07 02:00:14 UTC

Post by grammatim
If you can type in Notepad using the Hindi IME -- wait, let me check
-- I don't happen to have Hindi enabled at the moment, so I tried it
with Sanskrit -- yes, you can type Devanagari in Notepad, and the
matras combine properly with the aksharas -- then your text is in
Unicode and can be imported into Word (any version of Word since at
least Word 97) with no difficulty.
(I don't know why Character said you can't type Hindi in Notepad.)

I didn't say that at all, or anything like that.

What I said, and stick with, is that if you create a Notepad document
using FontX and send that .txt file to someone else, you have to tell
them to change the font from whatever their default is to FontX. The
document won't contain any information about what font was used,
whether it was a Marathi font or Arial or 'System' or anything else.

Moreover, once you click OK on the font change, that font will become
the default and will be used the next time you open notepad.

Post by grammatim
3. If the font is opentype (as indicated by opening the font file),

and Windows reports it as OpenType (icon is O), does it imply that the
font will be unicode.

OF COURSE.

I disagree. There are plenty of OT fonts out there that are not 100%
Unicoded. That is, they have some named glyphs that do not have
associated Unicodes. I cite many of Alejandro Paul's popular opentype
script fonts as just the first example I found. In one specific font,
adiaresis is properly Unicode 00E4, but adiaresis.001, an alternate,
has no associated unicode. The alternates can not be accessed in any
currnt MS application, but are available in Adobe products.

- Character

Post by S N
By unicode compliant I am referring to the standard characters which are
used out of a particular font in such a way that the document is
displayed correctly on any system.
Kindly clarify how to confirm if the font I am using to write the
document is unicode or not.

You can never GUARANTEE that a document will display 'correctly' (meaning,
I assume, that it appears exactly as it looked on the creator's system).
It's more important that applications (including browsers) be unicode
compliant than fonts.
http://unicode.org/faq/font_keyboard.html
If both parties have the same application, the same font, the same level
of language support, and maybe even the same operating environment, then
it should appear correctly. It doesn't matter what the font's level of
Unicode support is. Note that the same operating environment even extends
to printers, printer drivers, and display devices and settings.
There is no set of 'standard characters'. NO font supports all the
possible characters, particularly when you get to ideographic languages.
= Character

Post by S N
Are all OpenType Fonts Unicode compliant? Or is it the other way around-
All unicode fonts are opentype?

Neither. They are completely independent.

Post by S N
How do we check if a particular font is unicode compliant or not?

Depends on what you mean by 'unicode compliant'.
In some fonts all of the glyphs are unicoded. That does not mean that
they have the CORRECT unicodes - where 'correct' means that that the
character represented by the glyph has an appropriate name, that name
corresponds to the unicode, and it's the right shape for that character.
In some fonts, many glyphs are not unicoded at all. At least hrough
Windows Vista, those glyphs couldn't be seen with such utilities as
Character Map, and couldn't be used in MS applications. They COULD be
seen and used in most Adobe applications.
It's complicated!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

grammatim

2010-03-07 14:32:37 UTC

I didn't say that at all, or anything like that.

Of course you did.

Post by Character
What I said, and stick with, is that if you create a Notepad document
using FontX and send that .txt file to someone else, you have to tell
them to change the font from whatever their default is to FontX. The
document won't contain any information about what font was used,
whether it was a Marathi font or Arial or 'System' or anything else.

If the writer cared what font was being used, he wouldn't use Notepad;
but when I set the font for a Notepad text, the same font is set the
next time I open Notepad.

If you type using a Marathi IME, then Notepad carries a text in the
Marathi script, no matter what fonts happen to be installed on the
recipient's computer. If the recipient's computer has no font at all
that includes the Devanagari range of Unicode, then obviously the
recipient can't read it; but since in this case the recipient is a
publisher who publishes materials in Marathi (and perhaps Hindi as
well), it obviously has at least one font containing the Devanagari
range .

Post by Character
Moreover, once you click OK on the font change, that font will become
the default and will be used the next time you open notepad.

That's what I just said -- not having looked at the next paragraph
before I responded to the first one.

Post by Character
>3. If the font is opentype (as indicated by opening the font file),
and Windows reports it as OpenType (icon is O), does it imply that the
font will be unicode.
OF COURSE.
I disagree. There are plenty of OT fonts out there that are not 100%
Unicoded. That is, they have some named glyphs that do not have
associated Unicodes. I cite many of Alejandro Paul's popular opentype
script fonts as just the first example I found. In one specific font,
adiaresis is properly Unicode 00E4, but adiaresis.001, an alternate,
has no associated unicode. The alternates can not be accessed in any
currnt MS application, but are available in Adobe products.

I don't know who or what Alejandro Paul is, but if Alejandro Paul
makes fonts that don't comply with the international standard, then
Alejandro Paul's fonts should not be purchased for any serious use.
How many Devanagari fonts with misplaced glyphs does Alejandro Paul
market?

And anyway, script fonts are an abomination.

Post by S N
By unicode compliant I am referring to the standard characters which are
used out of a particular font in such a way that the document is
displayed correctly on any system.
Kindly clarify how to confirm if the font I am using to write the
document is unicode or not.

You can never GUARANTEE that a document will display 'correctly' (meaning,
I assume, that it appears exactly as it looked on the creator's system).
It's more important that applications (including browsers) be unicode
compliant than fonts.
http://unicode.org/faq/font_keyboard.html
If both parties have the same application, the same font, the same level
of language support, and maybe even the same operating environment, then
it should appear correctly. It doesn't matter what the font's level of
Unicode support is. Note that the same operating environment even extends
to printers, printer drivers, and display devices and settings.
There is no set of 'standard characters'. NO font supports all the
possible characters, particularly when you get to ideographic languages.
= Character

Post by S N
Are all OpenType Fonts Unicode compliant? Or is it the other way around-
All unicode fonts are opentype?

Neither. They are completely independent.

Post by S N
How do we check if a particular font is unicode compliant or not?

Depends on what you mean by 'unicode compliant'.
In some fonts all of the glyphs are unicoded. That does not mean that
they have the CORRECT unicodes - where 'correct' means that that the
character represented by the glyph has an appropriate name, that name
corresponds to the unicode, and it's the right shape for that character.
In some fonts, many glyphs are not unicoded at all. At least hrough
Windows Vista, those glyphs couldn't be seen with such utilities as
Character Map, and couldn't be used in MS applications. They COULD be
seen and used in most Adobe applications.
It's complicated!-

Character

2010-03-07 14:37:02 UTC

Post by S N
3. If the font is opentype (as indicated by opening hte font file), and
Windows reports it as OpenType (icon is O), does it imply that the font will
be unicode.

OF COURSE.

In my previous reply disagreeing with this statement, I may not have
used the best example. Better examples would include Adobe's Pro
series fonts. I just randomly picked Adobe Caslon Pro, where none of
the extended functions (Small caps, old style numbers, etc. have
unicode assignments.

In Microsoft's fonts provided with operating systems, the same holds
true; e.g., Corbel's small caps and some cyrillic alternates are not
unicoded.

= Character

grammatim

2010-03-07 14:58:28 UTC

Post by S N
3. If the font is opentype (as indicated by opening hte font file), and
Windows reports it as OpenType (icon is O), does it imply that the font will
be unicode.

OF COURSE.

Word has never claimed to be able to access OpenType features, so why
are you even bringing this up?

And what does it have to do with S N sending his Hindi (or is it
Marathi) text to another user?

Post by Character
In Microsoft's fonts provided with operating systems, the same holds
true; e.g., Corbel's small caps and some cyrillic alternates are not
unicoded.

SO WHAT? Anyone is free to add glyphs to the Private Users Area.

Character

2010-03-07 15:59:00 UTC

Post by S N
3. If the font is opentype (as indicated by opening hte font file), and
Windows reports it as OpenType (icon is O), does it imply that the font will
be unicode.

OF COURSE.

Word has never claimed to be able to access OpenType features, so why
are you even bringing this up?

Because you said "OF COURSE" to the question of whether an OpenType
font is, perforce, Unicode.

Post by grammatim
And what does it have to do with S N sending his Hindi (or is it
Marathi) text to another user?

Because, as addressed elsewhere, unless source and object systems have
functionally compatible fonts, the recipient may not have access to
characters/glyphs accessible to the sender. Specifically, if the
originator's font is completely unicoded and some glyph is used that
is not unicoded in the recipient's font - particularly if that glyph
IS unicoded in the source font and not in the object font.

Not all Devengari fonts are equal, just like all Roman fonts are not
equal, even with the same name from the same vendor. The Arial
supplied with Windows 7 has substantially more glyphs (both unicoded
and not) than does the version supplied with XP. Documents created
using the W7 font may not be test-equivalent.

Post by Character
In Microsoft's fonts provided with operating systems, the same holds
true; e.g., Corbel's small caps and some cyrillic alternates are not
unicoded.

SO WHAT? Anyone is free to add glyphs to the Private Users Area.

That's Private Use Area, defined as Unicode range E000-F8FF. Glyphs
without unicode assignments are NOT in the Private Use Area. Which is
why the statement that "OF COURSE" all OpenType fonts are unicode is,
on its face, ridiculous.

- Character

Character

2010-03-07 16:08:20 UTC

Documents created using the W7
font may not be test-equivalent.

Should read 'text-equivalent'

grammatim

2010-03-07 18:56:33 UTC

Documents created using the W7
font may not be test-equivalent.

Should read 'text-equivalent'

(I don't know what "text-equivalent" is, either.)

S N

2010-03-07 17:17:06 UTC

This discussion opens up a few more questions:
1. It appears that the simplest method of ensuring that the typing has been
done in Unicode (in Notepad or gmail or yahoomail) is that typing is done
using IME supplied alongwith Windows or other IMEs provided on the website
www.bhashaindia,com. Am I correct, please confirm. In this case I should be
able to change fonts to any of the Unicode enabled fonts.
2. Does a font have unicode glyphs even if Windows shows its icon as T?
3. There are some other typing tools provided by CDAC, India on the website
www.ildc.in. These typing tools for Hindi or other languages do not require
changing language bar settings for typing in Hindi. Instead they just
require pressing some shortcut key like ScrollLock etc. Does typing using
these drivers also result in unicode typing just like using IMEs.

Please advise.

Post by S N
3. If the font is opentype (as indicated by opening hte font file), and
Windows reports it as OpenType (icon is O), does it imply that the font will
be unicode.

OF COURSE.

Word has never claimed to be able to access OpenType features, so why
are you even bringing this up?

Because you said "OF COURSE" to the question of whether an OpenType font
is, perforce, Unicode.

Post by grammatim
And what does it have to do with S N sending his Hindi (or is it
Marathi) text to another user?

Because, as addressed elsewhere, unless source and object systems have
functionally compatible fonts, the recipient may not have access to
characters/glyphs accessible to the sender. Specifically, if the
originator's font is completely unicoded and some glyph is used that is
not unicoded in the recipient's font - particularly if that glyph IS
unicoded in the source font and not in the object font.
Not all Devengari fonts are equal, just like all Roman fonts are not
equal, even with the same name from the same vendor. The Arial supplied
with Windows 7 has substantially more glyphs (both unicoded and not) than
does the version supplied with XP. Documents created using the W7 font may
not be test-equivalent.

Post by Character
In Microsoft's fonts provided with operating systems, the same holds
true; e.g., Corbel's small caps and some cyrillic alternates are not
unicoded.

SO WHAT? Anyone is free to add glyphs to the Private Users Area.

That's Private Use Area, defined as Unicode range E000-F8FF. Glyphs
without unicode assignments are NOT in the Private Use Area. Which is why
the statement that "OF COURSE" all OpenType fonts are unicode is, on its
face, ridiculous.
- Character

grammatim

2010-03-07 19:06:59 UTC

Post by S N
1. It appears that the simplest method of ensuring that the typing has been
done in Unicode (in Notepad or gmail or yahoomail) is that typing is done
using IME supplied alongwith Windows or other IMEs provided on the websitewww.bhashaindia,com. Am I correct, please confirm. In this case I should be
able to change fonts to any of the Unicode enabled fonts.

Please stop asking the same question over and over.

If your font were not a Unicode font, it would be limited to 255
(maximum) shapes, and you would have to select every special combining
form yourself, with no assistance from the computer.

I know, because I did that for every one of the Indic scripts (and
many others) 15 years ago before Unicode was available in Mac OS 7.

Post by S N
2. Does a font have unicode glyphs even if Windows shows its icon as T?

How many times do you have to be told. One thing has very little to do
with the other. Before the invention of OpenType, ONLY TrueType fonts
were Unicode.

Post by S N
3. There are some other typing tools provided by CDAC, India on the websitewww.ildc.in. These typing tools for Hindi or other languages do not require
changing language bar settings for typing in Hindi. Instead they just
require pressing some shortcut key like ScrollLock etc. Does typing using
these drivers also result in unicode typing just like using IMEs.

NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Those are left over from more than fifteen
years ago when there was no standardization, and when fonts could have
no more than 255 characters, and when a त might have exactly the same
encoding as a t -- and if you changed the font from your Devanagari
font to, say, Times, your text would turn into roman-letter gibberish.

(I don't know how Windows fonts were done in those days, but on the
Mac they were PostScript fonts. And Mac and Windows allocated the
assignments of a few of the 255 slots differently, so even if you had
cross-platform software capability, you could not expect a perfect
transfer between the two operating systems. Unicode changed all that.)

Post by S N
Please advise.

Character

2010-03-08 07:02:38 UTC

Post by S N
1. It appears that the simplest method of ensuring that the typing has been
done in Unicode (in Notepad or gmail or yahoomail) is that typing is done
using IME supplied along with Windows or other IMEs provided on the website
www.bhashaindia,com. Am I correct, please confirm. In this case I should be
able to change fonts to any of the Unicode enabled fonts.

Yes. As long as you're talking about that specific subset of the
universe of fonts. BUT your recipients must use fonts from the same
subset.

Post by S N
2. Does a font have unicode glyphs even if Windows shows its icon as T?

Are you not listening? Not reading?

Yes. ALL fonts have unicode glyphs. Maybe all glyphs, maybe only the
basic ones. It has NOTHING to do with the icon or the format.

Post by S N
3. There are some other typing tools provided by CDAC, India on the website
www.ildc.in. These typing tools for Hindi or other languages do not require
changing language bar settings for typing in Hindi. Instead they just
require pressing some shortcut key like ScrollLock etc. Does typing using
these drivers also result in unicode typing just like using IMEs.

They also have nothing to do with it. They are exactly what they say
they are, shortcuts to doing things you could do in a number of
different ways. You are over-emphasizing Unicode as being necessary
and sufficient for your needs. There is no such thing as 'unicode
typing'.

- Character

Post by S N
Please advise.

Post by S N
3. If the font is opentype (as indicated by opening hte font file), and
Windows reports it as OpenType (icon is O), does it imply that the font will
be unicode.

OF COURSE.

Word has never claimed to be able to access OpenType features, so why
are you even bringing this up?

Because you said "OF COURSE" to the question of whether an OpenType font
is, perforce, Unicode.

Post by grammatim
And what does it have to do with S N sending his Hindi (or is it
Marathi) text to another user?

Because, as addressed elsewhere, unless source and object systems have
functionally compatible fonts, the recipient may not have access to
characters/glyphs accessible to the sender. Specifically, if the
originator's font is completely unicoded and some glyph is used that is
not unicoded in the recipient's font - particularly if that glyph IS
unicoded in the source font and not in the object font.
Not all Devengari fonts are equal, just like all Roman fonts are not
equal, even with the same name from the same vendor. The Arial supplied
with Windows 7 has substantially more glyphs (both unicoded and not) than
does the version supplied with XP. Documents created using the W7 font may
not be test-equivalent.

Post by Character
In Microsoft's fonts provided with operating systems, the same holds
true; e.g., Corbel's small caps and some cyrillic alternates are not
unicoded.

SO WHAT? Anyone is free to add glyphs to the Private Users Area.

That's Private Use Area, defined as Unicode range E000-F8FF. Glyphs
without unicode assignments are NOT in the Private Use Area. Which is why
the statement that "OF COURSE" all OpenType fonts are unicode is, on its
face, ridiculous.
- Character

grammatim

2010-03-07 18:56:08 UTC

Post by S N
3. If the font is opentype (as indicated by opening hte font file), and
Windows reports it as OpenType (icon is O), does it imply that the font will
be unicode.

OF COURSE.

Word has never claimed to be able to access OpenType features, so why
are you even bringing this up?

Because you said "OF COURSE" to the question of whether an OpenType
font is, perforce, Unicode.

When was Unicode invented?

When was OpenType invented?

Why would anyone devise an OpenType font that _wasn't_ Unicode-
encoded?

Who would buy it?

Post by grammatim
And what does it have to do with S N sending his Hindi (or is it
Marathi) text to another user?

And exactly what, with respect to Devanagari, are you referring to?

Are you not aware that the contextual shaping of conjoined parts of
Indic scripts are realized via OpenType in what MSWord calls "complex
fonts," and that Unicode involves the procedures that result in such
contextualizations?

Post by Character
Not all Devengari fonts are equal, just like all Roman fonts are not
equal, even with the same name from the same vendor. The Arial
supplied with Windows 7 has substantially more glyphs (both unicoded
and not) than does the version supplied with XP. Documents created
using the W7 font may not be test-equivalent.

Which characters from the Unicode Devanagari range are included in the
Windows 7 Arial but not in the Vista Arial?

What is "test-equivalent"?

Post by Character
In Microsoft's fonts provided with operating systems, the same holds
true; e.g., Corbel's small caps and some cyrillic alternates are not
unicoded.

SO WHAT? Anyone is free to add glyphs to the Private Users Area.

That's Private Use Area, defined as Unicode range E000-F8FF. Glyphs

The PUA is far, far, far bigger than that.

Post by Character
without unicode assignments are NOT in the Private Use Area. Which is
why the statement that "OF COURSE" all OpenType fonts are unicode is,
on its face, ridiculous.

Let's see you type a text in a Windows application Hindi (or Marathi)
that can't be read on another Windows computer.

grammatim

2010-03-06 14:43:34 UTC

Post by Character
There is no set of 'standard characters'. NO font supports all the
possible characters, particularly when you get to ideographic languages.

Please don't perpetuate the solecism "ideographic languages." It's
wrong on so many levels.

First of all, they are _scripts_ or _writing systems_, not
_languages_.

Secondly, they are not "ideographic," i.e. notating "ideas." They are
"logographic," i.e. notating "words," or (more accurately)
"morphographic," notating "morphemes" (a term in linguistics).

Third, they are not merely logo-/morphographic, but logosyllabic
(morphosyllabic), because the essence of a writing system is that it
notates the _sounds_ of a language, and Chinese characters can be used
for their sound only (as when recording foreign names).

Yes, the Unicode documentation calls them "ideographic," but Unicode
is a ass.
--
Peter T. Daniels, co-editor, The World's Writing Systems

Tim Murray

2010-03-06 18:12:28 UTC